Tulpa.info - tulpa-questions

the trap of trying to understand something about something as ambiguous as human mind is that being right and being wrong feels the same once you set your mind on something you consider other people's stance to be misinformation but you don't know if you are not misinformation

10:22 PM

misinformed*

Leiko

the trap of trying to understand something about something as ambiguous as human mind is that being right and being wrong feels the same once you set your mind on something you consider other people's stance to be misinformation but you don't know if you are not misinformation

Which is to say "Its not really testable in a controlled manner".

yes

So you end up making up whatever. Thats why i called it metaphore, a metaphore is fundamentally a really simple yet flawed model of some aspect of reality, but its obtained by feel and its predictive capability is likely none since it required more information to put together than what it spits out.

yes it's called a framework

10:26 PM

but when framework becomes a dogma you feel you understand something and other people are misinformed

10:26 PM

i think framework should be considered what it is, just a framework

A framework seems too formal or serious to me. Giving it the impression of functionality.

it's a bit like psychology. you have different schools and different explanations of how mind works, you have different models and ways of treatment, some of them disagree with each other but they still do work

10:28 PM

in the end of the day it doesn't matter how something works if it works

But as a beginner, surely you need something to start with, otherwise you're not going to get anywhere? Even if you can ditch that incomplete flawed model later

yes beginner needs something to start with but i think a lot of people overcomplicate things

10:28 PM

and give tips that make things too hard for people to learn it

Leiko

it's a bit like psychology. you have different schools and different explanations of how mind works, you have different models and ways of treatment, some of them disagree with each other but they still do work

Those usually tend to have more predictive power than tulpamancy frameworks though.

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10:29 PM

I have not seen a good tulpamancy framework up to this day.

anise

But as a beginner, surely you need something to start with, otherwise you're not going to get anywhere? Even if you can ditch that incomplete flawed model later

Just do not take seriously any material you read. You can probably bend it as much as you want and get results.

yes because psychology runs test it's not just a community of random people online that think they figured out something without mechanisms to self-correct

Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)

Just do not take seriously any material you read. You can probably bend it as much as you want and get results.

I'm not talking about 'guides' or whatever, because obviously they're not magic spells, I mean more about what I am trying to create in the first place

10:31 PM

But not taking stuff seriously is actually good advice haha

Leiko

yes because psychology runs test it's not just a community of random people online that think they figured out something without mechanisms to self-correct

We should adopt a citation and peer review system on tulpamancy guides from now on. /j

jade if you decide to have a tulpa i think you might get something miningful within minutes

10:32 PM

given your experience with hypnosis

10:32 PM

so if you decide to have one feel free to @ me @KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

1

I hope so! I'm not the best being tranced myself, to be honest, but yeah I do have a lot of practice

making a tulpa is a much easier process than people make it to be

10:34 PM

big part of it is reassurance and affirmation from other people which is something guides skip, it's much quicker when other people are involved

ooh!

10:35 PM

that's really interesting

also humans as social animals are using other people as a mirror, you learn who you are through seeing how other people see you

10:36 PM

so in my opinion tulpamancers should just get a feel of an idea for who they want their tulpas to be and let them interact with other people straight away

Leiko

also humans as social animals are using other people as a mirror, you learn who you are through seeing how other people see you

I dont think there is any other species that does that actually. I would say it requires theory of mind.

Leiko

so in my opinion tulpamancers should just get a feel of an idea for who they want their tulpas to be and let them interact with other people straight away

How would this work if you don't really feel like there's anything there at first?

let's say you want a kind, nice, helpful, cute tulpa

10:37 PM

your brain already understands those concepts, it learned from your interactions with other people what those traits are

10:37 PM

and it just repurposes it for modelling your tulpa

Tulpamancers are like authors but instead of isolating their characters in fictional worlds, they interact with them directly. And sometimes even let them interact with other people.

Well that framing makes it seem very easy

it is very easy

10:40 PM

people just overcomplicate it

Leiko

it is very easy

I guess what I don't get is that, to me focusing on what a character in my head might say is a conscious effort, it's like puppeting them. I thought you are aiming for a feeling of independence?

It will arise.

the trick is to not focus on what a character might say just let them say it

When the personality is developed enough, you will instantly know what they are thinking. (edited)

You are, or atleast in my opinion should be if you want a proper tulpa. Luckily that autonomy is fairly easy to get

just consider it not "thinking" but "being" process

1

anise

I guess what I don't get is that, to me focusing on what a character in my head might say is a conscious effort, it's like puppeting them. I thought you are aiming for a feeling of independence?

I encourage you to think of this feeling of independence as a side effect rather than a goal.

1

you just let your tulpa be and talk and you just get out of the way, but it's much easier to explain it if you were actually creating the tulpa right now

Ok!

10:51 PM

I guess this might get into the weeds of trying to explain something weird and abstract

Alejandro

I encourage you to think of this feeling of independence as a side effect rather than a goal.

Idk, I kinda feel like this is the point for me

if you want your tulpa to be independent then it will happen

anise

Idk, I kinda feel like this is the point for me

Hmm, you come to tulpamancy for dissociative experience rather a bond with your character, aren't you? I'm just trying to point out another possibility.

ok mon

In our experience independence and autonomy develops as they are interacted with more and so develop as a construct. Many daydream characters have some form of autonomy if you get immersed, so that isn't too hard to get. The main thing is for them to have self awareness and the capacity to build off themselves. This at its simplest comes from interacting with them as people rather than as just a character.

1

those things are not necessary if it's not your goal though

10:55 PM

you just have a different experience

Alejandro

Hmm, you come to tulpamancy for dissociative experience rather a bond with your character, aren't you? I'm just trying to point out another possibility.

I mean, both are important, but I am extremely curious about what is actually possible wrt this :)

Dawn 🕯

In our experience independence and autonomy develops as they are interacted with more and so develop as a construct. Many daydream characters have some form of autonomy if you get immersed, so that isn't too hard to get. The main thing is for them to have self awareness and the capacity to build off themselves. This at its simplest comes from interacting with them as people rather than as just a character.

Whats precisely the differentiation you are trying to make here between how you interact with a person/character. I believe you are missunderstanding the use of the word character completely.

by the way jade this is getting a high level conversation right now so i hope this doesn't distract you because you don't need to follow this if you want to have a tulpa at all

Mhm, it seems like a lot of subtle differentiation between very similar things

Those high level conversations are still less complicated than theorycrafting in some guides, change my mind.

Mhm, it seems like a lot of subtle differentiation between very similar things

@anise - jump yeah it's perspectives people have

Whats precisely the differentiation you are trying to make here between how you interact with a person/character. I believe you are missunderstanding the use of the word character completely.

@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump Simple, you don't actually view a character as a real entity with independence or their own will from yours, a character is fiction. A tulpa should be something that's considered equal in identity, or else it's just daydreaming with a pretentious title.

Dawn 🕯

Whats precisely the differentiation you are trying to make here between how you interact with a person/character. I believe you are missunderstanding the use of the word character completely.

@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump Simple, you don't actually view a character as a real entity with independence or their own will from yours, a character is fiction. A tulpa should be something that's considered equal in identity, or else it's just daydreaming with a pretentious title.

A tulpa is a character that is interpreted until it gets autonomy, the difference between a character and a "person" is just that the character is being "interpreted". Otherwise you dont differentiate nor interact in a different way with a character, because the whole point of a character is to be like a person. A character from a tulpa is bound to become a "person" as it will gain independence.

Dawn 🕯

Whats precisely the differentiation you are trying to make here between how you interact with a person/character. I believe you are missunderstanding the use of the word character completely.

@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump Simple, you don't actually view a character as a real entity with independence or their own will from yours, a character is fiction. A tulpa should be something that's considered equal in identity, or else it's just daydreaming with a pretentious title.

Thats not a difference in how you interact with it anyway.

Mhm, it seems like a lot of subtle differentiation between very similar things

@anise - jump you will see that a lot of people in the community have different experiences and they build their perspective based on their own perspective and try to generalise from it, and misunderstandings happen when those different perspectives formed from different experiences clash

1

Thats not a difference in how you interact with it anyway.

@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump Keyword's independence. A character inherently doesn't have it until they develop autonomy and most importantly their own memories and sense of self that is distinctively seperate to yours.

Dawn 🕯

Thats not a difference in how you interact with it anyway.

@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump Keyword's independence. A character inherently doesn't have it until they develop autonomy and most importantly their own memories and sense of self that is distinctively seperate to yours.

A characteristic of what you interact with does not define how you interact with it.

11:09 PM

I would also say that the personality of the original is also a "character" in a way.

Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)

I would also say that the personality of the original is also a "character" in a way.

That is because the independence doesnt come from the personality itself.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. What is your point exactly? If you mean what I meant in my initial comment it was that you have to treat a tulpa as seperate and independent of you if you want to get the ball rolling on them becoming that.

My point is that your differentiation is meaningless and character is a good word to define the early stages of a tulpa.

Character is a good starting point yes, but if stays as just a character then it's not really a tulpa is my entire point.

I also believe characters from writers are fairly independent as their personality is likely so developed inside the writers mind that they instantly know what their character would do.

Yes that's another way for a character to become an autonomous entity, writer's tulpas as they are called in some circles basically develop as a construct to the point of independence and thus stop being just characters.

Dawn 🕯

Yes that's another way for a character to become an autonomous entity, writer's tulpas as they are called in some circles basically develop as a construct to the point of independence and thus stop being just characters.

Most writers dont have tulpas though.

11:18 PM

Even if their characters are really developed and independent. And this is because those characters are confined into a tiny aspect of the writers life which is writing.

Yes, that's because there is a difference and that is that the characters of a writer often never get to the self awareness stage. They stay stuck in fiction.

How do you even measure self-awareness?

in volts

KiTTiKaTTy( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧

in volts

You put electrodes in the book!

There's no objective measurement for it but it's generally possible in our experience to get a basic they do or don't reading.

Dawn 🕯

There's no objective measurement for it but it's generally possible in our experience to get a basic they do or don't reading.

Do characters in a book or a movie feel like they lack self awareness to you?

11:21 PM

I dont think saying that "characters from writers lack self awareness" is meaninful at all.

11:22 PM

The only difference i see is that writers confine those characters to a specific imaginary story, with a specific format.

11:23 PM

If you let those characters interact with other real people, which a writer could do, they would become what we usually understand as a tulpa instantly.

Do characters in a book or a movie feel like they lack self awareness to you?

@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump Yes, it's inherently felt that they aren't real

Dawn 🕯

Do characters in a book or a movie feel like they lack self awareness to you?

@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump Yes, it's inherently felt that they aren't real

So you claim you could with a high if not perfect accuracy tell if a scene is scripted or they are 2 humans interacting then?

11:24 PM

You cant!

This is an inherently unrelated gotcha question. That's not what I'm talking about and you know it

Dawn 🕯

This is an inherently unrelated gotcha question. That's not what I'm talking about and you know it

It is not. You are saying that the interaction between characters and those between "real humans" is inherently different.

11:26 PM

So im asking you if you can tell them apart.

I'm talking about thoughtforms here, not sure where your brain isn't computing. A thoughtform that you interact with when reading or writing a story does not feel independent or "real" for lack of a better term compared to a much more well developed identity state like a tulpa

You say that you feel like people in a movie arent real. If you feel that but dont feel the same with a real human interaction then you can tell them apart.

You are discussing something entirely unrelated to what I'm actually talking about

Dawn 🕯

I'm talking about thoughtforms here, not sure where your brain isn't computing. A thoughtform that you interact with when reading or writing a story does not feel independent or "real" for lack of a better term compared to a much more well developed identity state like a tulpa

I would say that a lot of book characters are probably more developed personality wise and identity wise than many humans.

i also think it's unrelated

Lets rephrase. If a book writer came here and started letting their character talk (exactly as they do when writing their book). What would make that character not a tulpa and how could you tell it apart. (edited)

That's also unrelated, we're discussing internal experience, not acting or trickery